tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13519403.post1504530561091038694..comments2023-09-08T10:15:41.426-04:00Comments on God Entranced: Christian ApostasyDan Waughhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13239327568868739040noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13519403.post-5061710629028326362011-06-20T09:25:18.640-04:002011-06-20T09:25:18.640-04:00Keith,
I think you're attraction to the doct...Keith,<br /> I think you're attraction to the doctrine of election is because it's biblical. I'm not trying to be cute, but the word elect and other words that convey similar notions (predestined, chosen, etc) are found throughout Old and New Testaments. It's just a matter of how one understands those terms - ie. on what basis is someone or some group elect? <br /><br /> I think you are right - there is room for the elect (decreetal Christans) to have impact on the world. Moreover, we aren't privy to who is elect and who is not. I think we preach the good news to all, knowing that God uses means to bring his people (the elect) into the church and salvation. The preaching of the gospel is the means he most often uses. We don't withhold from people for fear that they might not be elect (that was a controversy from long ago called hyper-Calvinism). <br /><br />Your final paragraph is very interesting. Good thoughts for a non-theologian (if there is such a thing)!Dan Waughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13239327568868739040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13519403.post-56900565071634232812011-06-16T17:00:23.806-04:002011-06-16T17:00:23.806-04:00How can we be "falling AWAY from Christ"...How can we be "falling AWAY from Christ", and be "gathered TO Christ" at the same time?<br /><br />http://harpazosept2011.blogspot.com/2011/06/coming-apostasia.htmlharpazohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07391834820327522378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13519403.post-65872386853871910412011-06-15T12:19:48.342-04:002011-06-15T12:19:48.342-04:00Dan and Tim,
Sometimes I get more out of the comm...Dan and Tim,<br /><br />Sometimes I get more out of the comments on Dan's posts than from the original post itself (no offense, Dan!) The spirited dialogue here is a perfect example. <br /><br /><b>Big caveat: </b>I'm no theologian. My thoughts are my own, and are often poorly founded, but I can't deny that I've thought them. <br /><br />As a young adult that was raised in the shadow of Calvin College, you can understand that I gravitate toward an understanding of election...but maybe don't know why. It's like a favorite old quilt--I know I find it comfortable, but I'm not able to defend why it's so great. <br /><br />With that context, I've wrestled with the teaching that Jesus' death on the cross was sufficient for all the sins of the world's sinners, but my warm blanket tells me that there are 'elect' or decreetal Christians. Isn't there room for the life of these decreetal Christians to have an impact on the world around them (I almost said 'us', how arrogant) and increase the spread of God's grace to those not decreed?<br /><br />I actually find some comfort in Wilson's postulation. It allows for an inclusive truth larger than I'm able to comprehend--which is consistent with most of God's revleaded truths to this point in my life. <br /><br />I really like your pursuit of marrying the Parable of the Sower and the Sheep and Goats. I know I'm being too literal, but if a seed shows signs and sprouts but has not the rooting to endure, does it not resemble a healthy plant while sprouted? And really, doesn't a goat look a lot more like a sheep than a serpent? Are the goats the last to be seperated from the sheep because they bear the closest likeness? Might the population of the world (at time of judgement) include other metaphorical species also? Those that are sorted more easily? Perhaps the Goats are the last to be discriminated because their lives resembled so closely the called life of a Christian, but their unwillingness to impact the needy world around them revealed an underlying, unchanged nature of self-interest rather than of Christ-interest.<br /><br />I'm just sayin'...Keithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04366057023643747569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13519403.post-51311462223673612842011-06-15T08:47:15.395-04:002011-06-15T08:47:15.395-04:00Tim,
If I understand Wilson correctly, the only ...Tim,<br /> If I understand Wilson correctly, the only difference between how I explained sheep and goats and how he would explain it is that he'd say (and I'm prone to agree) that the goats were Christian in some sense. They self-identified as Christians, probably received baptism and the Supper, went to church, etc. But they weren't Christians in another sense - they didn't receive eternal life, they hadn't been regenerated and had their hearts changed by the Spirit showing they weren't of the elect. <br /> Make sense.Dan Waughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13239327568868739040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13519403.post-82248714556967731732011-06-14T16:22:28.218-04:002011-06-14T16:22:28.218-04:00Thanks for the quick response there, Dan.
And ye...Thanks for the quick response there, Dan. <br /><br />And yes, I wholeheartedly agree with your first paragraph. I knew I should have put a caveat in there saying "... that doesn't mean we shouldn't <i>try</i> to reconcile and understand these truths." But we should avoid "forcing" them to fit. <br /><br />Anyway, on to the meat: I'm prone to agree much more with what you've written in your response here than with Wilson. Granted, I haven't read his original source material, but your point about sheep and goats is well taken and addresses the dichotomy better than suggesting there are "tiers" (my word) of Christians. <br /><br />Maybe your next song of the week should be "Sheep go to Heaven," by Cake.Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07846046042101036896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13519403.post-71958802537767230762011-06-14T15:16:41.065-04:002011-06-14T15:16:41.065-04:00Tim,
I understand your reluctance to 'shoeho...Tim,<br /> I understand your reluctance to 'shoehorn' truths together. However, our belief that God is a God of truth and not of lies, and that the Bible is truth and doesn't contradict itself compels us to ask, 'how can these two strands of teaching both be true?'<br /><br />Even with the person of Christ, we put those things together affirming Christ was one person with two natures, not two people, not a person with a mixed nature. We reconcile the two truths together as friends.<br /><br />The question of assurance is tough. We're taught that if we believe in Christ, we know we're saved. There's some Scripture to support that, but there's other places where were taught to examine our faith and test its genuinness, to make our calling and election sure. Till we've endured till the end, our assurance will be less than perfect (I believe).<br /><br />Again, I don't want to advocate Wilson's position too hard, but there are plenty of Scriptures that teach that not everyone who identify themselves with Christ are actually his - some are goats. John says those who departed from us showed they weren't truly of us (though they thought they were for a time). Even in the parable of the sower/seed, many of the seed show signs of life and sprout, only to wither or get chocked out - images of people who identify with the church, but don't persist in belief. <br /><br />Where Wilson differs with many is that he'd say those people were Christians in some sense. Others would say that though they were baptized, a part of the church, they weren't Christians in any sense.Dan Waughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13239327568868739040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13519403.post-72592525132705572302011-06-14T14:56:07.402-04:002011-06-14T14:56:07.402-04:00Left out a word...
"I'll be the first to...Left out a word...<br /><br />"I'll be the first to admit I don't understand how to reconcile predestination with the idea of <b>free will</b> supported by scripture."Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07846046042101036896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13519403.post-85694982441571413442011-06-14T14:49:54.030-04:002011-06-14T14:49:54.030-04:00Yikes. So how do I know if I'm just a run-of-t...Yikes. So how do I know if I'm just a run-of-the-mill covenental Christian or one of these special-elect decreetal Christians?<br /><br />But seriously, this is the first I've heard of this position – and maybe it's just a lack of knowledge about it, but I find it quite disturbing.<br /><br />In the Christian faith we're often called to believe in two truths that, to us, seem to be diametrically opposed. God is three. But he's also one. Jesus is man. But, oh yeah, he's also God. <br /><br />We don't take these truths and try to reconcile and hybridize them -- Jesus wasn't half-man, half-God -- he was somehow both fully man and fully God.<br /><br />I'll be the first to admit I don't understand how to reconcile predestination with the idea of supported by scripture. But I think it can be dangerous to try to shoehorn the ideas together so they're able to be contained in our human minds. <br /><br />This explanation, which seems to suggest that there are two tiers of Christians, seems a bit scary to me. But, if I'm misunderstanding his position, please let me know!Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07846046042101036896noreply@blogger.com